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Author Topic: Why is it bad for outside groups to help Chatham County?  (Read 5996 times)
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Buzz
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2009, 09:59:31 PM »

Chathambooks, all I know about CAN is what l learned when  I attended one meeting to learn about major corridors.  I don't know anything about what they will or will not do. I think you have me confused.  But rock on as Randy likes to say.
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chathambooks
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2009, 10:12:28 PM »

I don't know what you are up to, but if don't know who Barbara McCoy is, then why is "Buzz" using her e-mail on their profile?

I really don't understand this. But if for some reason you guys are talking with Gheen - BE CAREFUL!! You have seen the style on this BBS and CAN is above this nonsense.


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belle
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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2009, 10:48:03 PM »

I don't know what you are up to, but if don't know who Barbara McCoy is, then why is "Buzz" using her e-mail on their profile?

I really don't understand this. But if for some reason you guys are talking with Gheen - BE CAREFUL!! You have seen the style on this BBS and CAN is above this nonsense.


Name:     Buzz
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pumpkin!


Hi, there, sorry I missed you. I really am, I miss you.
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flossiesmom
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2009, 12:46:18 AM »

I don't know what you are up to, but if don't know who Barbara McCoy is, then why is "Buzz" using her e-mail on their profile?

I really don't understand this. But if for some reason you guys are talking with Gheen - BE CAREFUL!! You have seen the style on this BBS and CAN is above this nonsense.


   
Email:    bmccoy43@gmail.com
Local Time:    March 08, 2009, 10:09:52 PM

OMG!!!!!  Busted!!!!  And the profile has been deleted!  ROFLMBO!!!!
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I agree with Maxine!  Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist.'
djkelly
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 01:18:10 AM »

The issue is whether the outside groups are offering help or using the local community to promote national issues.  The groups on both sides have an agenda to push and are not necessarily aware or concerned with local issues.  There is a point to be made that sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.  Since the commissioners brought in outside help to support the resolution it's to be expected that outside groups would show up to oppose it.  It would be nice though if people in the county that actually have a stake in the issue would be able to see what is going on.  But if local officials are going to rely on outside groups to promote their agenda then maybe the citizens of the county will have to do the same.

Since Chatham County was never considering 287(g) and didn't even qualify for it the whole idea of passing a resolution against it was a waste of time and effort that could have been spent on something more meaningful.  The 287(g) program is voluntary.  It's not appropriate for every community and no one is forcing communities to get involved.  Making a statement against it was unnecessary and made the situation worse instead of better.  If the commissioners felt the need to make a statement on illegal immigration they should have just done so instead of trying to pretend they were making a statement on the 287(g) program.
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Always watch what people do, not only what they say.  For deeds will betray a lie.
randy
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2009, 10:19:58 AM »

The issue is whether the outside groups are offering help or using the local community to promote national issues.  The groups on both sides have an agenda to push and are not necessarily aware or concerned with local issues.  There is a point to be made that sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.  Since the commissioners brought in outside help to support the resolution it's to be expected that outside groups would show up to oppose it.  It would be nice though if people in the county that actually have a stake in the issue would be able to see what is going on.  But if local officials are going to rely on outside groups to promote their agenda then maybe the citizens of the county will have to do the same.

Since Chatham County was never considering 287(g) and didn't even qualify for it the whole idea of passing a resolution against it was a waste of time and effort that could have been spent on something more meaningful.  The 287(g) program is voluntary.  It's not appropriate for every community and no one is forcing communities to get involved.  Making a statement against it was unnecessary and made the situation worse instead of better.  If the commissioners felt the need to make a statement on illegal immigration they should have just done so instead of trying to pretend they were making a statement on the 287(g) program.
toast
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chathambooks
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2009, 10:28:36 AM »

Good points dj. This, for me, was about the resolution and not 287G. These outside groups are wither pro or con 287G - a program that Chatham does not qualify for, nor did LEO ask for it. So ya - why the resolution?

Outside groups really just failed to see that at all.

It wouldn't have been a bad thing to get input form the outside groups had any of them offered information or a spirit that would have pertained to Chatham citizens and residents.
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MissMarty
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2009, 05:31:27 PM »

pumpkin!


Hi, there, sorry I missed you. I really am, I miss you.

Thanks Belle , I am back under my real name.  There is always someone on here that loves to play detective and expose people.  So I'll just use my real name, since I only say things I really believe anyway.   Wink  I enjoy your post Belle.

I'm thinking that viewing the information on your public profile is nowhere in the vicinity of "playing detective." 
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WolfpackFan
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2009, 06:30:47 PM »

No matter Barbara.  I am just glad you are here.  You have a lot to contribute.
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More today than yesterday - Mindy
belle
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2009, 09:38:09 PM »

back to the subject, outside groups are fine for research, but not for local leadership, IMHO. if they can't find any locals to sign up and carry their banner, they should shut up.
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ALIPAC
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WWW
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2009, 11:42:32 PM »

Actually, we are advising anyone that wants to oppose the BOC decision to block immigration enforcement to avoid working with Heather Johnson or CCV while she is playing a lead roll in it.  Heather completely screwed the proverbial pooch on these operations.

While ALIPAC has conducted successful operations around the state and nation, we got off on the wrong foot because Heather Johnson invited me to speak at her CCV meeting and I did not know how duplicitous and inexperienced in leadership she was.

She has spent most of her time attacking me and ALIPAC because she wants to gain some local political power and was upset that me and my organization garnered so much attention instead of her.

We are advising our people to avoid CCV and Heather and soon enough, most of the people in CCV (many of which recently joined due to my participation earlier) will be advised of Heather's open and destructive attacks on me and ALIPAC here and in the local papers.

Highly unprofessional and immature actions from Heather cost us most of the momentum in Chatham. 

To date, Heather Johnson has been the most negative experience I've ever had working with someone that was supposed to be on our side of the issue in the four years Ive been doing this around the nation.

Hopefully, some new leadership will arise in Chatham or even within CCV that will displace Heather and her antics so progress can be made.

W
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« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2009, 06:33:59 AM »

Highly unprofessional? Antics?
 LOL Rolling

You mean like personally attacking someone for your own political gain? Or do you mean writing positive stories about yourself? Even folks who disagree with CCV can see you seem more interested in positioning for political points, whining and attacking others than doing much positive.
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Crossroads ... seem to come and go
randy
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« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2009, 11:30:11 AM »

Actually, we are advising anyone that wants to oppose the BOC decision to block immigration enforcement to avoid working with Heather Johnson or CCV while she is playing a lead roll in it.  Heather completely screwed the proverbial pooch on these operations.

While ALIPAC has conducted successful operations around the state and nation, we got off on the wrong foot because Heather Johnson invited me to speak at her CCV meeting and I did not know how duplicitous and inexperienced in leadership she was.

She has spent most of her time attacking me and ALIPAC because she wants to gain some local political power and was upset that me and my organization garnered so much attention instead of her.

We are advising our people to avoid CCV and Heather and soon enough, most of the people in CCV (many of which recently joined due to my participation earlier) will be advised of Heather's open and destructive attacks on me and ALIPAC here and in the local papers.

Highly unprofessional and immature actions from Heather cost us most of the momentum in Chatham. 

To date, Heather Johnson has been the most negative experience I've ever had working with someone that was supposed to be on our side of the issue in the four years Ive been doing this around the nation.

Hopefully, some new leadership will arise in Chatham or even within CCV that will displace Heather and her antics so progress can be made.

W

William, I'm all for your organization goal to simply uphold Legal Immigration and is a lawful and honorable thing to strive for in upholding the laws of our great nation.  But I'm a member of the CCV and the Chatham Commissioners ICE Resolutoin that was totally a irresponsible decision along with Sheriff Webster who supported the Resolutoin.  Every citizen of Chatham County that I've spoke with personally had agreed 100% that the Commissioners had no business passing such a Resolutoin.  But the CCV has many other issues we our fighting for in our county and will not make just one resolutoin our main priority.  We also have many issues we are working on as if you can see by visiting our public web site http://www.tccv.org/.  The next item we are taking up is as follows
Republican party brainstorming session March 17
 
Land Grab AKA Chatham County Overlay Districts
 
Petition to rescind illegal immigrant resolution
 
Liquor By The Drink Confusion
 
Open Government
 
Civil Discourse and Illegal Immigration
 
LTE from a Chatham GOP member
 
Alert Center

This is our next Focus item we are bringing to the Public's Attention;

Land Grab AKA Chatham County Overlay Districts       
Written by Chuck     
Friday, 06 March 2009 
For a long time now, people in Chatham County have been concerned with ensuring the right type of growth occurs in the right places. There are many reasons for this and it is a noble goal. However, the definition of "right" is highly subjective and a comprehensive solution that encourages growth, preserves Chatham County, and statisfies everyone has been very difficult to find.

The latest plan on the block goes by many names. At the Chatham County web site, you can find the official documents on a page labeled Proposed Plan for Major Corridors. Some of us refer to this plan with the nickname Land Grab.

Dr Michael Sanera from the John Locke Foundation has done extensive research into this proposal.  Following are two articles he has written along with links to more information.

Chatham County’s Land Grab: A selfish elite is trying to take over 23,000 acres for their personal benefit
Chatham County’s proposed Corridor Overlay District ordinance, if adopted, represents a radical land-use plan that would allow county government to take control of over 23,000 acres of private land without financial compensation.

The “Scenic Overlay” part of the ordinance would transfer over 23,000 acres of private property from private control by landowners to political control by planners and the most powerful interest group in the county.

The “Overlay Nodes” that the ordinance would establish would restrict most retail business to ten specific areas of the county, which would severely limit the supply of land for commercial and retail developments to less than 7.5 percent of the county’s land, thereby making a few landowners very rich.

The ordinance would also make starting or expanding a business extremely costly, which would severely limit the ability of Chatham County entrepreneurs to start or expand businesses.

As a direct result of those high costs, if the ordinance were adopted, Chatham County residents should not be surprised if only national chain stores open in the county.

Additionally, such high costs would inhibit competition, driving up prices primarily for rural residents. Businesses outside the county and in the cities in the county would benefit from the higher prices caused by this lack of competition.

The ordinance would give county planners enormous discretionary power to interfere with landowners’ ability to use their land. This arbitrary and capricious rule by planners would provide opportunities for graft and corruption.

Finally, this ordinance would unjustly take private property without financial compensation, thereby imposing costs on some landowners for the benefit of an elite that believes its aesthetic vision justifies the use of governmental force.

Author: Dr. Michael Sanera

Download PDF file: Chatham County’s Land Grab: A selfish elite is trying to take over 23,000 acres for their personal benefit (461 k)

 

Chatham corridor plan would hurt most affected landowners
RALEIGH -- Chatham County landowners would bear the costs of a "radical" land-use plan designed to benefit a small, politically connected elite. That's the conclusion of a new John Locke Foundation Regional Brief.

Click here to view and here to listen to Michael Sanera discussing this Regional Brief.

"Chatham County's proposed Corridor Overlay District would impose dramatic restrictions on people's freedoms and property rights," said report author Dr. Michael Sanera, JLF Research Director and Local Government Analyst. "The ordinance would result in a large-scale coercive wealth transfer. Whether intended or not, it would have a 'Robin Hood in reverse' effect, benefiting the rich at the expense of the poor."

County commissioners are considering the Corridor Overlay District plan, which is billed as a tool for maintaining Chatham's rural character, protecting open space, promoting economic development, and improving property values. It would "strictly control" use of privately owned land along 60 miles of the county's major roadways, Sanera said.

"The proposed district ordinance would allow county government to take control of more than 23,000 acres of private land without having to pay the land's owners," he said. "It would also force most, if not all, new commercial and retail development into 10 designated intersections along major county roadways. These intersections, or nodes, contain little more than 7 percent of the county land outside existing cities and natural areas."

The new ordinance would do more than just limit the location of future development, Sanera said. "The county would also prescribe the type of development acceptable in these designated nodes," he said. "Regulations would control the size, location, and proportion of new buildings, along with the location of sidewalks, parking, and landscaping. The rules would even limit the heights and widths of windows and doors and specify the types of trees and shrubs permitted for mandatory landscaped buffers."

Property owners would face even more restrictions in the 60 miles of major roadway covered by a 3,000-foot-wide scenic overlay district, Sanera said. "These new rules would create severe restrictions of the supply of land," he said. "Land prices in the nodes would skyrocket, benefiting a lucky few landowners. Meanwhile, landowners along the major corridors who sit outside the nodes would suffer a large loss of land value. A cash-poor, land-rich property owner would suffer the most damage."

Property owners in the nodes or within the areas covered by the scenic overlay district would be forced to get a conditional-use permit from the county for all new nonresidential development, large subdivisions, and mixed-use projects, he added.

"This provision places a great deal of discretionary power in the hands of county planners and commissioners," Sanera said. "It sets up a relationship in which landowners who should be free to use what is rightfully theirs in ways they see fit would be forced instead to act like medieval peasants groveling toward the king with hat in hand."

"Ambiguous language would help county officials reject any planned development that they deem to be inconsistent with the county's 'rural character,'" he added. "Commissioners would be free to justify imposing their personal preferences. Given these extremely broad grants of power, it is likely that landowners will face major injustices."

This type of ordinance opens the door for problems, Sanera said. "The process leaves plenty of room for graft and corruption," he said. "Those who control the county commission can benefit fellow members of the Chatham County elite."

One bizarre consequence of the new land-use rules would involve the types of business that would sprout up along Chatham County's major roadways, Sanera said. "Along with high land prices, the nodes would carry so many stringent development requirements that local entrepreneurs and their families would not be able to afford the development costs," he said. "Only a national chain store such as Home Depot or Wal-Mart would have the resources to cover those costs before recouping them through sales."

Chatham County is considering this land-use plan largely to offer a presumed aesthetic benefit to people driving through the county, Sanera said. "This plan would place all of the costs on the property owners and give all of the supposed benefits to those who use the roadways, most of whom would pay no cost."

If county commissioners believe scenic buffers are in the public interest, the county should pay for the buffers, Sanera said. "Justice requires them to use tax money to buy property or easements from affected property owners," he said. "The county should buy and plant any trees required for the buffer. That way landowners would not be forced to pay all the costs for supposed benefits shared by all county residents."

Sanera recommends another step before commissioners move forward. "Any radical land-use plan such as this one would create a drastic change in Chatham County's future development," he said. "The idea should be put to an advisory vote of county residents, rather than a vote of a temporary majority of county commissioners."

Michael Sanera's Regional Brief, "Chatham County's Land Grab: A selfish elite is trying to take over 23,000 acres for its personal benefit," is available at the JLF Web site. For more information, please contact Sanera at (919) 828-3876 or msanera@johnlocke.orgThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it . To arrange an interview, contact Mitch Kokai at (919) 306-8736 or mkokai@johnlocke.orgThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .

 

 
We by no means our giving up on getting the ICE Resolutoin re scened, but it's one of many issues we our giving our free time to educate the Chatham County citizens. 
I hope you may find volunteers for your organization that our willing to give 100% of their time fighting for Legal Immigration, but I have several other issues that also affect our great county.  I wish you the best in your fight and hope for your cause as I would hope you wish the CCV and GOP and others in theirs, their all noble cause to be involved in.  Heather Johnson is a honest and valued member of our county and a friend.  Rock on Smiley
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whatsup
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« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2009, 12:04:17 PM »

Actually, we are advising anyone that wants to oppose the BOC decision to block immigration enforcement to avoid working with Heather Johnson or CCV while she is playing a lead roll in it.  Heather completely screwed the proverbial pooch on these operations.

While ALIPAC has conducted successful operations around the state and nation, we got off on the wrong foot because Heather Johnson invited me to speak at her CCV meeting and I did not know how duplicitous and inexperienced in leadership she was.

She has spent most of her time attacking me and ALIPAC because she wants to gain some local political power and was upset that me and my organization garnered so much attention instead of her.

We are advising our people to avoid CCV and Heather and soon enough, most of the people in CCV (many of which recently joined due to my participation earlier) will be advised of Heather's open and destructive attacks on me and ALIPAC here and in the local papers.

Highly unprofessional and immature actions from Heather cost us most of the momentum in Chatham. 

To date, Heather Johnson has been the most negative experience I've ever had working with someone that was supposed to be on our side of the issue in the four years Ive been doing this around the nation.

Hopefully, some new leadership will arise in Chatham or even within CCV that will displace Heather and her antics so progress can be made.

W

Cheap shot. And for what purpose?

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randy
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« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2009, 12:35:01 PM »

I agree what's up.  It's confusing becuase were all basically fighting for the same goal, to uphold our Legal Immigration laws which just need to be enforced.  Their is a whole lot of money and political power behind these special interests groups in our county, State and Nation as seen with the La Raza group is now on Presidents staff.  But if your a citizen or group who question's or speaks out that is willing to stand up for our constitution and fight against Illegal Immigration, you get attacked by the ultral liberal left for wanting our nation's laws upheld and called racist, bigots or Nazi's Roll Eyes
I'll be the first one to stand up for any immigrant that's working hard, trying for a better life and putting their kids to school to say rock on, but do it legally.  I believe strongly in the fair tax system, everyone pays their fair share for what one makes so everyone is contributing the same for his wages.  I also have no problem if someone falls on hard times to receive some assistance, but not for a lifetime.  What I have in my earthly positions I've worked hard for and should be mine, not the governments or this redistribution of wealth cr-p.  If you earn it, you should get to keep it and use it as you so choose, it's your money.
But back to the subject of outside help, that is a citizens right to pursue it or not too.  The special interest groups have the money and power right now, the US citizen needs all the help they can get when your up against these odds.  I've met Ron Woodard from NC LISTEN and he is not a hateful man, but works hard to protect American jobs and legal workers.  NC voice is another group that remains all activities within the law and fights with local politicians to look after the US worker.  I also have never seen ALIPAC use any unethical or unlawful practice when fighting for Legal Immigration, the special interests groups manipulate the truth, take advantage of our Constitution and Americas good will.  Seems like more US legal citizens would be supporting these groups instead of all the political special interests groups, why doesn't people com;plain about them, you think they got your interests at heart, think twice on that one is all I'm saying.
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