Springdale Drive

[RJLeeb]

she is one of the smarter people on this board especially when you are discussing historical facts...they don't come any smarter...

I'm sorry, but apparently you didn't catch the thread about Chavez did you?  That was the one belle repeatedly defended him as being "good for Venezuela".  She also mentioned his adherence to referrendums voted on by the people.

The problem is, belle got it wrong.  He ignored the will of the people and enacted the laws he wanted anyway.

She's quite the history expert alright.

[mamacash]

she is one of the smarter people on this board especially when you are discussing historical facts...they don't come any smarter...

I'm sorry, but apparently you didn't catch the thread about Chavez did you?  That was the one belle repeatedly defended him as being "good for Venezuela".  She also mentioned his adherence to referrendums voted on by the people.

The problem is, belle got it wrong.  He ignored the will of the people and enacted the laws he wanted anyway.

She's quite the history expert alright.

I did catch it and though I may not agree with her every post I do think we all have our right to our opinions. I have enjoyed your posts and think you have added a new perspective to the board. And I don't agree with you all the time.

[randy]

belle rocks

[concerned]

Well here we go again..............just so everyone knows who this is, I am Bill Clancy and I live at 110 Springdale Drive. As many of you know, I am against the opening of Springdale Drive for my own self serving and life quality reasons but, with that being said, I have posted in the past that although I am opposed to the opening of Springdale Drive, I am also very aware that life changes wether we like it or not.

 As I have also posted in the past on this subject, Randy Voller was required by the DOT(as a result of a traffic study performed by an Engineering firm with results provided to the NCDOT), to make approx 7 to 9 improvements to Springdale Drive,traffic calming devices,extending the north and south turning lanes on 15-501, repaving Springdale Drive and some other things that escape me at this moment at HIS expense and THEN he would be permitted to open up Springdale Drive to the residents of Chatham Forest as well as any other motorist who chooses to fly up and down Springdale Drive in order to save a few precious moments of drive time to get to where they want to go. My whole issue is..........the town should not pay for any of the "required" work laid out by the DOT in order for Springdale Drive to be opened. There are some type of pipes that are very old and in need of replacement on 15-501 where the turn lanes are to be expanded etc., and it makes some sense that the town share in some of those costs as it relates to the 15-501 issue but other than that, Randy Voller needs to pony up the money and the entire scope of work be COMPLETED........BEFORE........NOT AFTER.........Springdale Drives gets opened up!

As a Pittsboro resident for almost 10 years on my very quiet and peaceful street, it is a big let down to know that my quality of life here on Springdale Drive will be HUGELY / negatively effected by the opening of this street to the masses. I have already witnessed several drivers from Chatham Forest who were excessively speeding down Springdale Drive when the old barricade was taken down illegally in the not too distant past. As sensitive as this subject is to not only Springdale Drive residents and Chatham Forest residents, the fact of the matter comes down to this I believe. Once the road does get opened, not only will I and my Springdale Drive neighbors have to deal with speeding idiots up and down Springdale Drive but, you folks in Chatham Forest will have to deal with even more speeding problems than you already have WITHOUT Springdale Drive even being opened at this point in time. As the old saying goes, "be careful of what you ask for because you just may get it"!

[billwillcox]

I just read all the posts on this topic and need to correct some misinformation on the thread.
What happened at the last Town Board meeting was that the Commissioners received a last minute proposal from Voller's attorney. In fact, most of the board had not had a chance to read it. But the upshot was this: Voller Realty would pay half of the $60,000 needed to add turn lanes to 15-501 and the Town would pay the other half. The turnlane issue has been the key sticking point up to this point.
The Town Manager said he liked the proposal. However a lot more work is needed to come up with a contract. One unresolved issue is which type of traffic calming devices to use on Springdale Drive. There was a plan for a traffic circle but that has been tabled, partly to help reduce Voller's expenses so he can help pay for the turnlanes.
The action taken by the Board was to table the matter until the attorneys can iron out a contract.
But probably within a few weeks, my guess is that Voller will deliver a signed contract to the Board and the Board will vote to approve it. The issue has been dragging on for nine years and this is the closest anyone has ever come to resolving it.
BTW, it was Board member Hugh Harrington who started the process. If it succeeds, he deserves a lot of credit. Of course, not everyone wants to see the road open...and if I was Bill Clancy, I wouldn't either...but anyone who knows Chatham Forest knows how much quicker and more convenient it would be to access 15-501 via Springdale.
I think the Mayor (Voller) and Board and probably most of Chatham Forest probably support opening the road.

[WolfpackFan]

Bill, I don't think the issue is should the road be open (well except maybe to those living on Springdale), the issue has always been, what is necessary and who should pay for it.

[sjsw313]

I'm wondering why a lot of the other streets in Pittsboro now have all these 4-way stops to slow traffic down yet Thompson street has none??  I can hardly get across the street to get my mail and the speed limit is a joke.  It is worse than ever because many now use it as a shortcut rather than go around the courthouse.  Since the Ford dealership opened many of their  customers step on the gas and fly by my house while trying out a vehicle.  Some times cars come by side by side as if racing.  With the Pittsboro police station so close, why can't the residents on Thompson street be safe too??

[Patty52]

Hear, hear, sjsw313. I also live on Thompson Street and the speeders are just horrible. I am close to downtown, and folks just floor it when they turn off of Hillsboro. And you are so right about the Ford dealership - it has made things much worse, because now there are drivers racing in BOTH directions. I know there was talk of putting in a four-way stop sign or two in the past, but nothing has ever come of it.

[fools gold]

Wolf-

As you said-"Bill, I don't think the issue is should the road be open (well except maybe to those living on Springdale), the issue has always been, what is necessary and who should pay for it."

This is not and never was Voller's responsibility.

From my understanding I respectfully offer these points:

The road would have originally connected.

In fact if you go back to page 319 from the minutes of the July 14, 1997 Town Board meeting you will find the following:

Motion was made by Commissioner Bryan and seconded by Commissioner
Brooks to approve the preliminary subdivision request from Voller
Realty and Construction with the following conditions:

1.    That if any damage is done to the Springdale Drive due to
construction it will have to be repaired before final plat approval.

2.    Dedication of additional r-o-w to the property.

3.    That a "temporary turn around" area be noted on the final plat:

a)    Increased to allow for emergency vehicles 60' x 40' in size

b)    Written easement obtained from owner.

Vote Aye-4 and Nay-0

When Voller Realty came back to the town to access Chatham Forest in
2001, 2002, 2003 and 2005 these aforementioned requirements on the
original approval had been satisfied.  Yet the Town would not honor
its original approval. Subsequently, the Town tried to require an array of
improvements and the delays caused the NCDOT to enter the picture.

Now, if is possible, look at it from Voller's point of view as
businessman. It is the point of view that any businessperson or even
individual would take if confronted with the same circumstances.
Voller determined his profits based on what was required of him by the
town in terms of infrastructure improvements he would have to make. He
sold his lots based on those costs. Those lots are pretty much all
sold.  Now, many years after the fact and contrary to the original
approval, the town wants him to make payments for upgrading a road
based on their mistake and delays when the development was approved
and subsequently modified.

No developer or business would do that and
no other business have ever been required to do that.  Should we go
back to the developers of various developments already approved and
built and see if they will pony up now for additional infrastructure
improvements, such a sidewalks, more road connections, recreation
fees, connection fees or higher capital payments for water and sewer
improvements?

In fact if you examine West Cornwallis and its connection to Willow Springs and Governors Commons uou will notice no improvements were ever required despite complaints by the citizens living on West Cornwallis Street. (West Cornwallis connects to 15-501 and in this case is similar to Springdale Drive.)

We all know that if you asked any private developer if their firm would pay for improvements after the fact because elected officials have changed their minds and/or public pressure the answer would be no. In fact I would assume in most cases the HBA and affiliated groups would oppose post facto sanctions.

In any case to satisfy the Town's own ordinances the road should have either been opened years ago or the end of Springdale Drive turned into a cul-de-sac.  Neither ever occurred.

At this point it appears all parties are willing to open the road with precautions installed to slow traffic. NCDOT was brought into the picture by the Town and they required a traffic analysis of 15-501. Although not required, the developer paid for all of this work and counter to what the report originally stated the NCDOT wants greater improvements on 15-501. Again this is outside the approval of the community and long past the last final plats, however, in the spirit of cooperation it appears all parties are trying to find a way to bring closure.

[natvrabit]

I can see where folks on Springdale which has historically been a quiet dead end street have concerns. It is a long "straight away" which would make it conducive to speedsters without some sort of "traffic calming device". Still, for them it will mean volumes more traffic that otherwise they never would have had, not for CF.  Things change as growth occurs...good and bad.
I for one won't use it as a short cut, in part out of respect for the fact it is residential and not intended as a thoroughfare. Too many possibilities of kids darting out in front of a car etc.

[randy]

I can see where folks on Springdale which has historically been a quiet dead end street have concerns. It is a long "straight away" which would make it conducive to speedsters without some sort of "traffic calming device". Still, for them it will mean volumes more traffic that otherwise they never would have had, not for CF.  Things change as growth occurs...good and bad.
I for one won't use it as a short cut, in part out of respect for the fact it is residential and not intended as a thoroughfare. Too many possibilities of kids darting out in front of a car etc.

I agree 100% with that thought also opens it up more for easier get away for thieves and burglars

[WolfpackFan]

Wolf-

As you said-"Bill, I don't think the issue is should the road be open (well except maybe to those living on Springdale), the issue has always been, what is necessary and who should pay for it."

This is not and never was Voller's responsibility.

From my understanding I respectfully offer these points:

The road would have originally connected.

In fact if you go back to page 319 from the minutes of the July 14, 1997 Town Board meeting you will find the following:

Motion was made by Commissioner Bryan and seconded by Commissioner
Brooks to approve the preliminary subdivision request from Voller
Realty and Construction with the following conditions:

1.    That if any damage is done to the Springdale Drive due to
construction it will have to be repaired before final plat approval.

2.    Dedication of additional r-o-w to the property.

3.    That a "temporary turn around" area be noted on the final plat:

a)    Increased to allow for emergency vehicles 60' x 40' in size

b)    Written easement obtained from owner.

Vote Aye-4 and Nay-0

When Voller Realty came back to the town to access Chatham Forest in
2001, 2002, 2003 and 2005 these aforementioned requirements on the
original approval had been satisfied.  Yet the Town would not honor
its original approval. Subsequently, the Town tried to require an array of
improvements and the delays caused the NCDOT to enter the picture.

Now, if is possible, look at it from Voller's point of view as
businessman. It is the point of view that any businessperson or even
individual would take if confronted with the same circumstances.
Voller determined his profits based on what was required of him by the
town in terms of infrastructure improvements he would have to make. He
sold his lots based on those costs. Those lots are pretty much all
sold.  Now, many years after the fact and contrary to the original
approval, the town wants him to make payments for upgrading a road
based on their mistake and delays when the development was approved
and subsequently modified.

No developer or business would do that and
no other business have ever been required to do that.  Should we go
back to the developers of various developments already approved and
built and see if they will pony up now for additional infrastructure
improvements, such a sidewalks, more road connections, recreation
fees, connection fees or higher capital payments for water and sewer
improvements?

In fact if you examine West Cornwallis and its connection to Willow Springs and Governors Commons uou will notice no improvements were ever required despite complaints by the citizens living on West Cornwallis Street. (West Cornwallis connects to 15-501 and in this case is similar to Springdale Drive.)

We all know that if you asked any private developer if their firm would pay for improvements after the fact because elected officials have changed their minds and/or public pressure the answer would be no. In fact I would assume in most cases the HBA and affiliated groups would oppose post facto sanctions.

In any case to satisfy the Town's own ordinances the road should have either been opened years ago or the end of Springdale Drive turned into a cul-de-sac.  Neither ever occurred.

At this point it appears all parties are willing to open the road with precautions installed to slow traffic. NCDOT was brought into the picture by the Town and they required a traffic analysis of 15-501. Although not required, the developer paid for all of this work and counter to what the report originally stated the NCDOT wants greater improvements on 15-501. Again this is outside the approval of the community and long past the last final plats, however, in the spirit of cooperation it appears all parties are trying to find a way to bring closure.

Yes Randy, I think your response has been seen before.  I was merely pointing out what the issue is.

[Charles39]

Wolf-

As you said-"Bill, I don't think the issue is should the road be open (well except maybe to those living on Springdale), the issue has always been, what is necessary and who should pay for it."

This is not and never was Voller's responsibility.

From my understanding I respectfully offer these points:

The road would have originally connected.

In fact if you go back to page 319 from the minutes of the July 14, 1997 Town Board meeting you will find the following:

Motion was made by Commissioner Bryan and seconded by Commissioner
Brooks to approve the preliminary subdivision request from Voller
Realty and Construction with the following conditions:

1.    That if any damage is done to the Springdale Drive due to
construction it will have to be repaired before final plat approval.

2.    Dedication of additional r-o-w to the property.

3.    That a "temporary turn around" area be noted on the final plat:

a)    Increased to allow for emergency vehicles 60' x 40' in size

b)    Written easement obtained from owner.

Vote Aye-4 and Nay-0

When Voller Realty came back to the town to access Chatham Forest in
2001, 2002, 2003 and 2005 these aforementioned requirements on the
original approval had been satisfied.  Yet the Town would not honor
its original approval. Subsequently, the Town tried to require an array of
improvements and the delays caused the NCDOT to enter the picture.

Now, if is possible, look at it from Voller's point of view as
businessman. It is the point of view that any businessperson or even
individual would take if confronted with the same circumstances.
Voller determined his profits based on what was required of him by the
town in terms of infrastructure improvements he would have to make. He
sold his lots based on those costs. Those lots are pretty much all
sold.  Now, many years after the fact and contrary to the original
approval, the town wants him to make payments for upgrading a road
based on their mistake and delays when the development was approved
and subsequently modified.

No developer or business would do that and
no other business have ever been required to do that.  Should we go
back to the developers of various developments already approved and
built and see if they will pony up now for additional infrastructure
improvements, such a sidewalks, more road connections, recreation
fees, connection fees or higher capital payments for water and sewer
improvements?

In fact if you examine West Cornwallis and its connection to Willow Springs and Governors Commons uou will notice no improvements were ever required despite complaints by the citizens living on West Cornwallis Street. (West Cornwallis connects to 15-501 and in this case is similar to Springdale Drive.)

We all know that if you asked any private developer if their firm would pay for improvements after the fact because elected officials have changed their minds and/or public pressure the answer would be no. In fact I would assume in most cases the HBA and affiliated groups would oppose post facto sanctions.

In any case to satisfy the Town's own ordinances the road should have either been opened years ago or the end of Springdale Drive turned into a cul-de-sac.  Neither ever occurred.

At this point it appears all parties are willing to open the road with precautions installed to slow traffic. NCDOT was brought into the picture by the Town and they required a traffic analysis of 15-501. Although not required, the developer paid for all of this work and counter to what the report originally stated the NCDOT wants greater improvements on 15-501. Again this is outside the approval of the community and long past the last final plats, however, in the spirit of cooperation it appears all parties are trying to find a way to bring closure.

Wasn't the original connection approval based on a small 15-20 house subdivision?  And as plans changed and grew to be bigger and bigger Chatham Forest, requirements changed?

[natvrabit]

I can't elaborate on that. Don't know, don't care. Do have a friend that lives there, that I do visit and I don't know how anyone speeds through there with all the vehicles parked in the road vs. the drives. Why. That is why I don't like to drive through there...all the cars in the streets. Hides little younglins out playing and maybe darting out into traffic. I know from going out in public how LITTLE some people tend to their children.

[fools gold]

Charles 39,

Good point.  It would seem that all projects in town should be treated the same diligence, care and application of the rules.

It is my understanding that due to water pressure issues near the end of Springdale, Chatham Forest changed its original entrance from Springdale to Thompson Street.  When that change was made the planning board recommended a turning lane on Thompson Street, which was built.  Subsequently the town signed plat number 2000, page 415 which connected Springdale to Fox Chapel. That was in the year 2000.

Now if one were to apply the standards equivalently then West Cornwallis should have been improved and had traffic calming devices installed by the developer of Willow Springs. (Willow Springs has 64 lots.)

It appears all parties are trying to find an equitable solution.

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